posted February 10, 2003 10:55 PM               

All-Star Comics - Adventure #466

Wonder Woman - With WW Archive #4. After that, we move out of Peter/Marston material pretty quickly into some pretty unimaginative fair. The only other interesting tale (Villany Inc) is available in the WW Annual. After WW #4, pick up two issues of WW in Comic Cavalcade (which will finish it off) and decide what to do about the Silver Age.

Plastic Man - End with the Cole stuff, about 4-5 more volumes.

Legion - End with Superboy #245 - Earth War. The long draught after that is painful til you get to The Great Darkness, which is TPB form now.

JLA - JLA #200 or 220 at best. Please don't do JLA-Detroit. I lived through that once already.

My 2 cents cuz I was bored.

posted February 10, 2003 11:15 PM               

Just the other day, I allowed myself a glimmer of optimism about the Masterworks program. I liked the late 1960s early 1970's Hulk (Abomination intro and such) and consulted the Marvel Index for guidance. Lo' they will not reach my era of interest for at least 2-3 years assuming they can keep the program on track. I will have to suffer through at least 1 if not 2 editions of virtually nothing but the Hulk vs. The Leader and his pink things. Dull **** of the highest order. At the moment, I became instantly grateful that Archives line was mature enought to reach into the era of my own nostalgia as well as provide a diversity of pre-D material from the 40's.

posted February 11, 2003 01:31 AM               

End JLA at issue #150, the end of Englehart's run. There are only a few points of interest after that, most notably the Perez drawn issues. Those should be trade paperbacked, possibly in the next year or so. Do we really need to suffer once again through the transformation into the Zatanna League of America, followed by a disco two parter where Firestorm joins? Ugh.

End All-Star at the end of the Golden Age material. Concentrate the silver age archive slots on true silver age material, not 1970s books. The 70s material belongs in tpbs, not archives. This goes for LSH also. All that great 1950s and 1960s material is languishing while we argue about whether to pad out the LSH archives with Karate Kid issues. Stop the madness! Say no to further LSH volumes.

What else?

SA Green Lantern. Obviously stop no later than the first O'Neil and Adams issue. I would suggest stopping around issue 54 or so. The writing declined around then, IIRC. This would mean only, oh, about 3 more volumes.

Doom Patrol. Don't stop yet! Keep going! That's it. I want to see this baby go until SPOILER WARNING!!! well, anyway, until the final issue of the original run.

posted February 11, 2003 02:19 AM            

All-Star: Finish the 40s run. Put the 60s and 70s stuff into a "Justice Society Archive." I disagree with the comment above that it only belongs in a tpb format. I find that a lot of people don't have the 70s All-Stars in their collection, and/or have trouble finding the Adventure run, or the Power Girl Showcases. I think the material is all good enough for an Archive or two. (Though I wouldn't want to see it until the current All-Star is finished).

Legion: End at Saturn Girl's wedding which would be about Vol. 15, IIRC. I have no desire to see all of Karate Kid in the Archives. I hate that book. People here seem to remember it more fondly than they should...why does KK look so damn much like Bruce Lee in that book? He used to be white. Can you get a race change in the 30th century? Whatever.

World's Finest: I want to see to the Swan run on this!

Green Lantern: Stop just before the Adams run.

Doom Patrol: All the way through the end of their 60s run, and maybe the 70s Showcases, if there's room.

Flash: Hard to say...this book had a lot of high and low points. However, at least for the next couple volumes, they'll still be in the high ones.

Aquaman: I want him all through his 60s World's Finest run, and his own title. Then I want all the late 70s Adventure books. I guess you could say that I'm an Aquaman fan.

posted February 11, 2003 02:23 AM               

Justice League and Legion seem to me to be financial engines that help drive the program--they're both now in territory where it can't cost much to produce each volume, so even modest sales might be more profitable than quite high sales on volumes of earlier material would be.
So while I'm not excited about either strip in the 1970s, I don't begrudge them spots on the schedule for as long as they sell (short, of course, of the Justice League of Detroit and the baggy jump suit period of the Legion).

As for others, most of my preferences are primarily though not solely art-driven:

Stop Flash, at least for a while, after the first Infantino run.

Stop Green Lantern after the O'Neil/Adams GL/GA (or before then if the boxed volume is considered to cover it.)

Run Hawkman and The Atom through to the end of The Atom and Hawkman. Don't do any subsequent series or miniseries.

Finish Doom Patrol, but don't do the revival.

Run Aquaman at least until the first cancellation of the solo title, preferably through the rest of the Aparo material as well.

One or at most two more volumes of World's Finest Superman/Batman teamups will give me all I need, since it's the Sprang material I'm interested in, but I'd imagine that most people would want more. Finish the Curt Swan run at least.

Supergirl--I don't care a lot, but one or two more volumes might be nice.

Wonder Woman? <grumble grumble> I'm finding even the earlier, reputedly good stuff to be hard going. Frankly, as a reader I don't care when it ends, but as a lover of the medium, I'd be sorry to see any of the Marston material go un-Archived.

GA Flash and GA Green Lantern--as I've so often ranted, it's the ends of these series that I'm primarily interested in.
Either they should be finished in all their tediosity, or the archives should skip ahead to the Toth, Elias, Kubert and Infantino art. Not doing the final year and a half of each is not an option as far as I'm concerned, and if I have to sit all the way through 9 intervening volumes of Doiby Dickles and the Three Dimwits, then so be it.

I'd like to see a second volume of Enemy Ace, and as much more Sgt. Rock as is practical, given that so much of it is by Kubert.

posted February 11, 2003 02:54 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by DStepp:
Wonder Woman - With WW Archive #4. After that, we move out of Peter/Marston material pretty quickly into some pretty unimaginative fair. The only other interesting tale (Villany Inc) is available in the WW Annual. After WW #4, pick up two issues of WW in Comic Cavalcade (which will finish it off) and decide what to do about the Silver Age.

---

WW #4 would finish with Wonder Woman #10, and Sensation Comics # 31. But since Marston continued through to Wonder Woman #28 (and beyond) and Sensation #84, that’s about 6 more Archives worth of material- material that is just as imaginative and even more accessible than his early stuff. I’d rather see all the Marston stories Archived, and to hell with the Silver Age stuff, which was all crap anyway.

posted February 11, 2003 06:27 AM            

All-Star - Should and will according to Bob G. end with volume 11, the end of the Golden Age. If the 70s run is collected, I'm in favor of a tpb. One of the reasons I favor tpbs for almost everything in this era is that it is an affordable alternative for younger readers who may be more interested in this era anyway.

I think that JLA and Legion are going to slow down real soon. Like James, I'm reluctant to stop these two series.

I agree with James on Atom and Hawkman. I'm not against tpbs of later material.

I'm glad that KryptoSuperDog committed heresy first: I agree that O'Neil/Adams shoudn't be Archived. Keep the box set in print or reprint the trades.

SA Flash - I consider the mission accomplished after Infantino, but I'm reluctant to consciously cancel the series at that point.

Wonder Woman - mod WW belongs in tpb for the same reason as All-Star. How many fans of the current run are going to want to buy a $50 hardcover? How many might buy a $20 tpb? I say keep the GA version going. I think that sales will keep this series moving slowly.

GA Flash and Green Lantern - I agree with James. As a reader, I find these stories are somewhere between difficult and unreadable. However, these stories are such a crucial part of DC's history that I wouldn't want to end the series unless we are at a point where DC is focusing on keeping old volumes in print instead of producing new volumes.

I don't know enough about World's Finest. However, no Archive line should stop as long as a future volume would contain Sprang.

posted February 11, 2003 08:14 AM               

One of the biggest strengths of the archive program to me is that it reprints everything in order reguardless of perceived quality.

posted February 11, 2003 08:32 AM               

2. Legion - This is a toughie. I see three logical end points.
A - Stop at Zero Hour. That gives us every single LSH story. Anything after that isn't really the Legion anyway.
B - Stop at the last Levitz-Giffen issue (before the Giffen/Bierbaum). That's a logical break, but ends the series on a whimper, not a bang.
C - Stop with Earth War. Reasonable, but omits a lot of good stuff afterwards. Great Darkness wasn't the only good LSH story of the 70's and 80's.

My inner completist wants option A, but I think B is sensible, if sales warrant. I'd hate for DC to stop archiving LSH just because one good Levitz story is available in tpb. At a minimum, they need to keep going until the Lightning Lad-Saturn Girl wedding.

3. Plastic Man - I don't own any, so I don't really care, but it would be nice to see DC complete a few archives runs and this seems a likely candidate. Keep going until the end, Cole or no Cole.

4. All-Star - Stop with All-Star #57, then give it a rest for a few years. Start a different series with #58.

5. Justice League - Through #150 at a minimum. There's some drek between 110-140, but some really good stuff, too. I wouldn't mind if they continued through issue #200.

If JLA and LSH keep the bottom line going so that we eventually get The Ray and Dr. Mid-Nite, then I don't mind them being on the schedule annually or bi-annually.

6. Superman and Batman - I imagine if these stop, then there will be no archives period. Moot point.

7. Aquaman - Through 70's Aparo.

8. Any other Golden Age - If they start, they should finish.

I think it's great that we will soon have complete Golden Age runs of The Spirit and All-Star Comics. A complete Plastic Man seems very possible. In the next few years, these series will end, freeing up space on the schedule for other accelerated lines. When I think ahead to the archive schedule of 2008 or 2010, I see an expanded release schedule (16-24 archives per year) as well as accelerated release of continued series, not just all Vol. 1's.

posted February 11, 2003 09:15 AM            

JLA - Vol. 12, which should run through 108, at the most another volume to finish off the Wein issues.

DP - Vol. 5, which finishes off the '60s run.

Atom - Vol. 5, which finishes the Fox/Kane run at issue 37

Hawkman - Vol. 3 or 4 depending on how it breaks - I at least want up to issue 18, the final team-up with Adam Strange, but I want to avoid the Kashdan issues which begin at 22 if possible.

GL - Vol. 9, if they do it right, will finish off the Kane run at issue 75.

Flash - Vol. 8 or 9 - I'd like to see it through issue 175, the 2nd Superman/Flash race, although that means seeing it through the dreadful Mopee origin story at 167.

World's Finest - Vol. 7 - I think this finishes the Swan run around issue 174.

posted February 11, 2003 09:50 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by DStepp:
Or at least, there comes a point when they should end. I vote for the following end points:

---

This may seem overly simplistic, but you understand that you're allowed to not buy them, right?

posted February 11, 2003 01:55 PM               

When you get down to it, though, sales have to be the ultimate decider of when to stop a line (other than supply, that is--there just won't BE more than 5 volumes of Golden Age Hawkman, no matter how well it sells).
How could it be otherwise?

posted February 11, 2003 05:21 PM               

Argueing over when they "should" end seems silly, when sales will no doubt determine it for us. Besides, by the time they clear out everything most people feel they should Archive, fans will probably be argueing over the redone versions of the Archives, done as holographic microdiscs which project full-color 3-D images for you to enjoy, which will allow you to enjoy and experience more of the detail, color, action & excitement than any "mere" book printed on bright-white paper possibly could!

posted February 11, 2003 06:31 PM            

Even the B list heroes like Atom, Hawkman and Aquaman should continue their runs even when their self-titled series run out. The idea of the archive is forming a collection. At the risk of some lame 8-pagers here and there, I'd like to see full collections. They remind me of the index done back in the LSH of the 80s or the Index series Eclipse did of DC series. The history of the character is chronicled for both fans and newcomers alike. I'd even like a second Black Canary volume with all that great Grell, Nasser and Von Eeden art.

As for ALL-STAR, the 70s stories continued the series title (and then, of course the ADVENTURE run) so they should continue Archiving them. I wouldn't be totally opposed to a new Vol. 1-- and it probably would sell better.

I agree that most pre-Crisis series including all the Batman and Superman stories should be archived. It will take forever anyway.

JLA should go to #200 at least. Besides the improved production values, many of the 17 pagers can fit into a single volume. If 13 issues are in one volume, it's worth the $3 a piece they'd probably cost in their original form.

Although I'd like a Silver Age Titans series to follow NTT 2, I think the NTT series should collect all the Perez issues eventually. They are among the best comics DC has ever done. These books reach a far wider audience in bookstores and even in comic stores than those of us who rifle through back issue bins.

Starman should end with the Golden Age series but I wouldn't mind a TPB of the First Issue Special and Ditko Adventure Starman.

Legion should continue through Levitz/Giffen. Again, among DC's best storytellers ever. They probably won't include all the Karate Kid issues anyway (thankfully) and I wouldn't hold my breath for a KK paperback.

GL should end with #75... maybe by then the Adams hardcover could be reissued as GL/GA Archive 1 and continue with the great Grell art afterwards.

posted February 11, 2003 06:46 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by dcexplosion78:

...Out of curiosity, what was the least successful Archive so far?

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They don't tell us things like that.

posted February 11, 2003 06:52 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marty Raap:
Thinking about James' point that all we're really doing with a discussion like this is stating preferences for available slots, I find I still don't want to think about Archives I DON'T want to see even in that limited way. As a person who would basically like to have every available comic Archived (or Masterworked) at some point, I find it doesn't matter much to me which specific volume gets released in a given month. Sure, I have my preferences for characters, but I find I'm not dying to see my personal favorites (Phantom Stranger) over some other characters I don't like as much personally. Whether it's Adam Strange #1 or GA Flash #2, it's all good to me, as it's one volume more added to the library. I'm confident I'll get those Phantom Stranger volumes at some point. I suppose it's true that every volume published takes a slot away from something else, but that just doesn't bother me, as I want to see everything anyway, and I accept that some waiting in line is an inherent part of this process. In fact, I generally object to the idea that everyone has to get their favorite volume right now. That's the type of thinking that leads us to a preponderance of new series at the expense of continuing volumes of old series. I'd much rather space good (i.e., saleable) material out to help support material that's more questionable (i.e., less commercial) to serve the long-term interest of eventually getting everything (or as much as humanly possible) out so that EVERYONE can be happy. This should be the goal of the Archives program, in my view.

---

I like your way of looking at it, Marty. It's the way it ought to be.

However, you probably have about 20 more years of archive purchasing left to you than I do.
There are some things I'm in a hurry to see, which makes me think more in terms of priorities.

posted February 11, 2003 07:49 PM            

First, I've seen several posters on several threads suggest that decisions to stop an Archive for any reason other than sales are arbitrary decisions. I've never understood this, so I finally pulled out my dictionary.

Of course other dictionaries will have different versions, but this is what mine says:
1. subject to individual will or judgement without restriction
2. dictatorial; despotic
3. capricious; unreasonable

Since I rarely hear the word capricious, I looked up caprice (the noun form).
1. a sudden, unpredictable change

While I have seen some people suggest arbitrary decisions based on their own personal preferances, I think it is inaccurate to characterize any decision that uses criteria other than sales as arbitrary.

If the rules are logical and are established by a group of experts (Bob, Dale, Paul, etc. with our input), then I don't see how they can be arbitrary. Certainly no more arbitrary than the decision to start a line.

posted February 11, 2003 08:06 PM            

While I agree that increasing the number of slots helps, I don't seem to be able to convince people that the market cannot support the number of slots that it would take to truly undertake a complete reprinting of DC up to the Crisis.